Threatening to attack holy cities is what terrorists — not Americans — do

Reported today in the cst.gif today, August 6 2007: Rep. Tom Tancredo, the Colorado Republican congressman and presidential candidate, is urging that the United States try to prevent terrorist attacks by vowing to retaliate against the Muslim holy sites of Mecca and Medina!

“If it is up to me, we are going to explain that an attack on this homeland of that nature would be followed by an attack on the holy sites in Mecca and Medina,” he said in Iowa last week. “Because that’s the only thing I can think of that might deter somebody from doing what they otherwise might do.”

potus.jpg

And this nut expects his constituents to vote for him? Is this the sort of leadership we expect in this country? This is totally un American.

Mecca and Medina, in Saudi Arabia, are Islam’s holiest cities. All able-bodied Muslims are required to make a pilgrimage there at least once in their lives. Tancredo’s comments were recorded and posted on the Web site iowapolitics.com.

“Perhaps it’s evidence of a long-shot candidate grasping at straws and trying to create some kind of a controversy that might appeal to a niche audience of anti-Muslim bigots,” said Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

So for those who keep track of hate speech, in third-world countries and particularly the Islamic world, what sayst thou of this presidential candidate. Luckily, GOP quickly rejected and denounced such statements.

Traditionally silent during presidential campaigns filled with divisive foreign policy debates, the State Department on Friday delivered a rebuke to would-be nominees of both parties whose recent comments have complicated U.S. efforts to overcome deep suspicion about the war on terrorism in the Muslim world.

“Those who wish to hold office can speak for themselves, and whoever is elected in 2008 and comes into office in 2009 will then be in a position to talk about what they intend or plan to do,” said deputy spokesman Tom Casey, a career foreign service officer.

First it was Barack Obama’s talk of dialogue with dictators and invading Pakistan to kill Islamist militants; then it was Hillary Rodham Clinton refusing to rule out the use of nuclear weapons to that end. Now, the Democratic front-runners have been joined by Republican Rep. Tom Tancredo, who threatened to bomb Muslim holy sites to stop terrorist attacks.

Hey, but we’re the World! We’re the civilized!

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Comments
  1. […] Yes we do! Jump to Comments Back in August, I posted NOT what Americans Do in which it was clear that some nuts in the U.S. government are no less than terrorists themselves, […]

  2. Unrestrainedlove,

    Your comments are always welcome here. Thank you!

    As for IP, good riddance!

  3. unrestrainedlove says:

    Crusades: hardly what Jesus had in mind. Priests traveling from town to town saying enlistment into the army is guarantee for salvation? No, thank you.

    KKK: they should realize that Jesus was present-day Middle East-ern descent.

    abortion clinic bombings, “gay bashing”, Muslim bashing (for lack of a better phrase): all very poorly supported. Not at all what Jesus condoned. Awful iconic images to “represent” the Christian movement.
    And, yes, those individuals who partook in these acts would be called radicals (it’s questionable if they really were followers of Christ, but I digress) If they had read God’s Word and put it into practice, none of these things would have happened.
    In the first century, records show that when the earliest Christians would travel from town to town, people would literally cling to their feet when they left, not wanting them to leave.

    I just thought I’d be a light. Not here to argue in front of others, but be an ambassador of a highly misunderstood Jesus.
    I’m always up for discussion about him.

  4. Infidel Parrot says:

    “If someone openly states that Christians are ‘just as bad a Muslim radicals,” then of course I’d have to ‘judge’”

    Is NOT the same as:

    “If someone openly states that Christians are ‘just as bad a Muslim radicals,” then of course I’d have to ‘judge’ that this person is probably not a Christian.”

    I only worded the above in this way because you accused me of being judgmental to begin with.

    You should be ashamed of yourself. Journalists have been sued and fined for twisting and using quotes out of context like you did here. I actually enjoyed debating on this blog, but if you can’t manage to form intellectually-based rebuttals to my comments, then I think I’m done here.

  5. IP,

    Your comments:

    1. If someone openly states that Christians are ‘just as bad a Muslim radicals,” then of course I’d have to ‘judge’

    Great! Next, you will start your own Cult!

    2. What I wondered was if anybody could provide me with CURRENT examples of violence or injustice by Christians against any other elements of society.

    You don’t seem to get it. You think the media here would state one’s religion when they commit a terrorist act in the US UNLESS one is a Muslim? When Timothy McVeigh killed 168 innocent people in Oklahoma, why didn’t the media present him as a Christian terrorist? He was found to be Roman Catholic (or will you now discount this branch?) but he was never labeled as “A Christian American – or a Roman Catholic terrorist!”

    If he even looked “foreign” he would have been immediately linked to Al-Qaeda and then the religion of Muslims would be on trial!

    And when you dismiss the terrorism acts of the KKK and state that “It’s not the Church’s fault that vigilantes twisted the Bible to justify violence against their own brothers and sisters..” then surely you’ll dismiss the acts of a few Muslim terrorists who twisted the Quran… right? Of course not, because YOUR bigotry is crystal clear by now!

    3. This is a baseless and ridiculous generality that you make. Your reflexive correlation between the swastika and Christianity makes your prejudices obvious.

    Excuse me? Generality you say? I think that the only one person generalizing here is you! See above points again!

    4. This comment reinforces your bigotry. I read these articles and found no evidence, not even an implication, that this violence was perpetrated by Christians

    You refuse to understand.. see the points above.

    5. I’m starting to think you may be a Muslim yourself, though most Muslims I know are quick to confess their religious affiliation

    Now here’s a TRUE Christian! Now you judge me for what you call defending Islam? I believe if you were alive during the terrorists era of the KKK you would have been part of the group.

    6. There is no bigger enemy of Western liberalism on the entire earth than a true follower of Mohammad.

    Ah! Do I hear a “generalization” here? Bigotry? Hatred? Very apparent in your responses that you hate Islam. Then you claim to work in Muslim countries. You probably even think that God sent you there to convert these people, don’t you?

    Whatever you are, I am beginning to think that you cannot be a Christian!

  6. Infidel Parrot says:

    My earlier quote,
    “It’s not in my heart to argue with another Christian in the presence of non-believers.”
    was not intended to offend or somehow imply judgment of non-Christians who read this thread. If someone openly states that Christians are ‘just as bad a Muslim radicals,” then of course I’d have to ‘judge’ that this person is probably not a Christian. Publicly arguing with other Christians is not in the best interests of the Church. There are matters of doctrine that have been disputed since Christ himself walked the earth. They haven’t been resolved in about 200o years, so I doubt they’ll be resolved late at night on some liberalist blog. I also wanted to clarify that my contention is not that God condones violence in the form of terrorism against civilian targets, but instead that the Bible in no way, shape, or form prohibits Christians from going to war.

    In response to you comment:
    “There was another reply you posted in which you attack Iran and Muslims there of the violence they commit against gays and Kurds and challenge all readers to point out where in the world did “Christianity” ever practiced or committed violence. Funny ,but from the times of the Crusaders and through the sixties (KKK – cross burning “Christians”) and until this very day, Muslims in the USA are attacked daily.”

    I believe the challenge you refer to was worded thus:
    “I would like any one of you to tell me what calamities Christianity brings upon society. What is sooo terrible about Christianity that you consider it on par with Islam?”

    What I wondered was if anybody could provide me with CURRENT examples of violence or injustice by Christians against any other elements of society. Of course you can dredge up old KKK stories and the anti-Christianophobe’s favorite: the Crusades. First of all, the KKK was absolutely a criminal extremist organization. I would have tied the nooses on these guys myself for the disgusting crimes they perpetrated in God’s name. That was an ugly time in the American South. It’s not the Church’s fault that vigilantes twisted the Bible to justify violence against their own brothers and sisters. And the Crusades? I won’t bore you by launching a moral equivalency argument blaming Muslims for similar acts throughout their own history. That’s as tired as blaming today’s Christians for the Crusades. What I will say is that the Catholic Church throughout its history strongly discouraged its common members from reading or trying to interpret the Bible. They taught that the higher the Church official, the better they were able to understand the Word and discern God’s commands from it. The Catholic Church was man-led and man-serving. The leadership gladly exploited its subjects’ ignorance by forming for itself an Army to militarily further its interests. In a nutshell, I believe this is how the crusades came to be.
    Under Protestantism, even English translations of the Bible are considered to be God’s inspired word, and Christians are obligated to get to know God though the Bible. The general knowledge of God’s standard (the Bible) by the average Christian is a critical point of accountability for leaders who might succumb to the temptation to preach self-serving, false doctrines (a la David Koresh).

    “So when a place of worship is torched, desecrated and vandalized, when swastikas are are drawn on the doors of synagogues and mosques alike, who might be behind such acts? Americans or Christians or Christian Americans?”

    This is a baseless and ridiculous generality that you make. Your reflexive correlation between the swastika and Christianity makes your prejudices obvious. Do your readers a favor and stop pretending to be some neutral facilitator of enlightenment, and admit that you’re an anti-Christian.

    “Here’s the most recent incident against American Muslims that were most likely committed by American Christians…”

    This comment reinforces your bigotry. I read these articles and found no evidence, not even an implication, that this violence was perpetrated by Christians. In the case of the NBC article, the ‘hate mail victim’ was the director of the local CAIR chapter. You think that CAIR’s only enemies are Christians? You have anti-religious postings throughout you whole blog from people who show as much contempt for Islam as I do, yet you automatically blame Christians for all violence toward Muslims?
    I could really respect you more if you would claim a position is an anti-Christian. I keep thinking you’re this uber-liberal, but the themes of your writings are extremely sympathetic to Islam, almost too much so. I’m starting to think you may be a Muslim yourself, though most Muslims I know are quick to confess their religious affiliation and tend to debate secularist comments as fast as they debate pro-Christian comments.
    I wonder what kind of spell Islam has cast on American liberalism that has you all believing that Islam should be more welcome in the USA than Christianity.
    When it comes right down to it, Islam includes everything that you hate about Christianity, but magnifies it by 10. Christians don’t support homosexual marriage? Well Muslims hang homosexuals. Christian judges want to display the ten commandments outside their court houses? Under Islam, the rule of law is defined solely by the Qu’ran.
    Liberals believe in the mantra; ‘The enemy of my enemy is my friend.’ Nothing could be further from the truth in this case. There is no bigger enemy of Western liberalism on the entire earth than a true follower of Mohammad.

  7. Bravo Infidel Parrot,

    “It’s not in my heart to argue with another Christian in the presence of non-believers.”

    So it’s OK for you to judge? Your comments, if you removed “Christain” from them would have led me to believe that it was some fundamentalist somewhere that said this. But maybe you are and that’s why you make such comments.

    There was another reply you posted in which you attack Iran and Muslims there of the violence they commit against gays and Kurds and challenge all readers to point out where in the world did “Christianity” ever practiced or committed violence. Funny ,but from the times of the Crusaders and through the sixties (KKK – cross burning “Christians”) and until this very day, Muslims in the USA are attacked daily. However, here in the US, we do not label people by their faiths. So when a place of worship is torched, desecrated and vandalized, when swastikas are are drawn on the doors of synagogues and mosques alike, who might be behind such acts? Americans or Christians or Christian Americans?

    Pathetic logic Mr. IP.

    Here’s the most recent incident against American Muslims that were most likely committed by American Christians…

    “An “acid bomb” was thrown near worshipers outside an Arizona mosque early Monday morning.

    According to eyewitnesses and local police (case# 07-92489), a container of acid and a reactant was thrown out of a car window and landed near an imam (Islamic religious leader) and another mosque official who were standing outside the Albanian American Islamic Center of Arizona in Glendale, Ariz., at about 1 a.m. on August 6. The plastic bottle landed within 20-25 feet of the apparent targets, who reported a chemical smell after the container exploded..”

    And here’s another: http://www.nbc6.net/news/13254722/detail.html

    And add the recent comments by Tom Tancredo.. or have you already forgotten his “Christian” remarks to commit violence?

  8. Eidolon Night says:

    I guess somebody lost the whole verse about turning the other cheek, but I like another one better:

    “Let he without sin cast the first stone.”

    The U.S. goes around trying to police the whole world. It has never worked, it’s not working, and it never will work.

  9. Infidel Parrot says:

    Unrestrained Love,
    It’s not in my heart to argue with another Christian in the presence of non-believers. I also believe in diplomacy. On foehammer.net I recently engaged in a lengthy tooth-and-nail debate over whether it would be best to strike at Iran now, or attempt more direct diplomacy and continue sanctions for a little while longer before considering military options. I know that might still not be your idea of Christian behavior, but I see nowhere in the Bible where Christians are forbidden from war as a means of defending a life where they are still free to worship Christ. What we disagree on are the details.

  10. Infidel Parrot says:

    Eidolon Night,

    “Christian radicals are just as bad as Muslim radicals.”

    I’m not going to comment on your Rosie O’Donnell conspiracy theories about 9/11.
    I happen to agree with you on the separations of church and state. I support secular government in the US.
    I will, however, request of you that you further explain the above quote. Read about the justice systems in Iran. Iran is the purest theocracy in the world, and just the other day they hung three Kurdish journalists as ‘enemies of Islam.’ On Julne 19 2007, two gay teens were hung in Iran.

    http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/10/shocking_new_ph.html

    Name one nation on earth that advocates hanging Jesus’ enemies. I’ll make it even easier, name one nation on earth that has legal provision to punish ‘enemies of Christianity’ even with a $5 fine. They don’t exist. You might think that Iran is an isolated case. Nope. BTW, Iran frequently hangs homosexuals, rape VICTIMS, and anyone whose life is outwardly counter to the Qu’ran’s teachings.

    In Saudi Arabia, Egyptian Dr Mamdooh Fahmy was fired from his job as a surgeon, had his work visa revoked, and is not being allowed to return home to Egypt. Why? Because he professed his Christianity to his coworkers. Is this a Christian practice?

    http://www.christiantoday.com/article/saudi.arabia.traps.christian.surgeon.for.faith.in.jesus/12061.htm

    Since I mention Egypt, Muslims woman Shaymaa (Eman) Muhammad al-Sayed, a few years ago left her family, converted to Christianity, and married a Christian man. Knowing the consequences of apostasy is death under Islam, she successfully hid from her ‘family’ for a few years until some of her relatives happened upon her in a market one day recently. Knowing her family intended to secure her return to Islam under pain of death, police took her into protective custody for several days before returning her to her FAMILY, not her infidel Christian husband, her VIOLENT FAMILY. Witnesses saw them beating her even as they walked out of the police station. She hasn’t been seen or heard from since. Muslims didn’t learn this from Christians.

    http://christianfreedom.org/blog1/2007/07/24/egyptian-police-release-christian-to-her-violent-family/

    One more quick reference to the moral equality of Islam to Christianity; With the explosion of the Muslim population in the UK, the rate of female genital mutilation has exploded as well. We Christians don’t cut, remove, or otherwise mutilate our daughters’ private parts.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/08/03/london/main3130654.shtml

    I could go on all day with this stuff. ALL DAY LONG. Before I continue, though, I would like any one of you to tell me what calamities Christianity brings upon society. What is sooo terrible about Christianity that you consider it on par with Islam?

    I have coined the term ‘neolib’ to refer to the ‘freedom from Christianity’ crowd among us. These people are not interested in freedom of religion, nor do they even prescribe to the new age idea of ‘freedom from religion,’ they are only interested in gaining their freedom FROM Christianity. Oppressing, hateful, criminal, conservative Christians. Your suppression of American heritage and tradition creates a void that is going to be filled by something else.

    One last thought; when the Muslims run the US, as is their plan, you will no longer be free to disagree with the establishment. Your Imams and Muftis will do your thinking for you, and if you fall out of line you might find yourself dangling at the end of a noose.

  11. unrestrainedlove says:

    In regard to the actual article, I’m a bit of an idealist, if you will. I’m big on diplomacy.

    Tancredo’s proposal sounds kind of a bit like the proactive measure that Japan attempted with the United States at Pearl Harbor. We all know how that turned out.

  12. Eidolon Night says:

    First of all, there is a good chance that 9/11 was not a terrorist act committed by radical Muslims. See http://houston911truth.org/investigating-911-videos/

    Second, religion should stay out of politics, but no matter what happens it always finds its way in. This is especially true in Near Eastern countries.

    Third, Christian radicals are just as bad as Muslim radicals.

  13. unrestrainedlove says:

    In my humble opinion…

    Our fight is “not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers in this present darkness, against the spiritual realms in the heavenly places” as said in Ephesians.
    Ultimately, the battle in Revelation is between God and satan.

    Who reprimanded Peter for taking a soldier’s ear off (which he was probably aiming for the entire head. Who aims for an ear?)? That would be Jesus.
    Is that sword maybe God’s word? Maybe it’s not a true sword but figurative as in an image for strive? Jesus is controversial, so no, he doesn’t bring peace among people (because he understands the nature of humans) BUT he brings peace between humans and God. Read down through Matt. 10:39.
    “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.” The only of the beatitudes where the result is identity in and from God. I don’t think he says stuff just to say it. I think he means what he says.

    You speak wrath as clearly stated in the Old Testament, yes, but perhaps the proclamation of wrath is to prepare the way for the redemption that Christ offers. You will also note that the Old Testament is also a different law, and when Israel was a people united to God.
    But, alas, God instilled the new law as elaborated on in Galatians. Jesus came to fulfill the law.

    Maybe the things that Jesus taught aren’t just on a micro-scale, but also on a macro-scale. He sends us out as sheep among wolves but he tells us to be as shrewd (astute, keenly aware) as snakes and as innocent as doves.
    None of the Twelve died in battle, Paul never addresses soldiers in his letters…

    I am here to usher in the kingdom of God.
    “To bind up the brokenhearted and proclaim freedom for the captive.”
    To love the Lord my God with all my heart and all my soul and all my mind and all my strength, to love my neighbor as myself.
    To bless those who persecute me, to turn the other cheek (in so doing, heap coals on his head).
    “When a man’s ways please the LORD he makes even his enemies be at peace with him.” (that’s in Proverbs. Old Testament.)
    I mean, if Ghandi can overthrow the entire British Empire without a single hit, if Portugal’s overthrow of their dictator is called “the bloodless revolution”, who is to say we can not do the same? Have we exhausted our options?

    The truth is, we can go on and on using Scripture and historical references to make our points, but in reality, I stick to the greatest commandments. I believe they were meant for everyone who calls Jesus “Lord”. I understand God’s character, and I know that God is a God of wrath, but lest we forget He is a God of justice and mercy, and He is all these things because He IS love. He offers a sacrifice and we choose to accept it or not. In accepting, we live the life he calls us to.. and “narrow is the way”, is it not, IP? Jude says to snatch others from the fire and save them. As part of this life, we are told to communicate his message to all people (like Jonah.. Old Testament.. who preached to the Ninevites, another -ite and actually some of the worst -ites that existed, and they repented.. and we’re saved.).
    I’m not saying I have God completely figured out, because when we say that, we’ve created an image of God, not the true God.
    It’s easy to sit around and talk about the Bible, and it’s easy to discuss who’s right and who’s wrong in the grand scale of things and talk about “godless” politicians, and cut people down who don’t believe in Jesus, and it’s easy to tell God how magnificent He is and eat our three (or more) meals a day and go to sleep in our comfortable beds, that’s all very easy…
    But when Jesus talks about his followers he talks about people who do, who go. People who visit the prisoner, bring food to the hungry and water to the thirsty. People who give their time, and energy and money.

    People who are willing to lose their lives.

    Take some time to dwell and examine on your and my thoughts. Test everything as it says in Thessalonians, Infidel Parrot, and see. I will do the same. I pray for understanding and discernment for both of us, brother.

  14. Gimly says:

    The problem is that his words (which are his and no one else’s) will most probably be twisted in the Islamic world to look like they were the words of the American people and the “west”.

  15. Joe says:

    Tancredo sounds like the kind of kid who thought the best way to deal with a hornet’s nest was to throw rocks at it.

    Sheesh.

  16. Chris says:

    Fortunately there’s not a Christian’s chance in Mecca that Tom Tancredo will ever be elected President, or likely receive votes from anyone except the likely zealot constituents of whatever Colorado backwater elected the loon.

    One of the beautiful things about free speech in America is that a guy like Tom is free to show everyone what a horse’s ass he is. Thanks, Founding Fathers!

  17. Infidel Parrot says:

    Don’t make the mistake of thinking God is a pacifist. Read the old testament, when the Israelites conquered the Canaanites and the Moabites and all the other -ites.

    You want me to read Matthew? OK. Matthew 10:34 says: “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

    Also, read about the end times. There are to be wars and rumors of wars, a great persecution, a great falling away, and then the 1000 years’ war to rid the earth of evil.
    While Jesus walked on the earth he did indeed preach a message of peace and love and patience and long suffering….in our interpersonal relationships. God does not intend for us to stand by idly while our lands are subjugated to evil, malicious, barbaric theologies that denied Christ’s deity and resurrection. Examine your faith very closely, Unrestrained. It looks like you’re trying to make God who you want Him to be, not knowing Him for who He is.

  18. unrestrainedlove says:

    Jesus’ life was the anti-thesis of violence.

    And I’m sure bloodshed breaks his heart.

    Any person who claims to be Christian is saying they are -in fact- a follower of Christ and hold to what Jesus teaches.

    Jesus never came to start another religion, he came to restore right relationship between humans and God. He wasn’t even a political activist [but he did cause a lot of trouble in the political realms by preaching of another kingdom (the kingdom of God) which was taboo during the Roman Empire…]

    And he was not a white, middle-class Republican. In fact, I’m pretty sure he looked a lot like Bin Laden.

    Shall we read the gospel of Matthew together? or perhaps John? See what God reveals to us…

  19. Bahrom says:

    You’re right, if we stoop to revengeful killing of people who just happen to have the same religion or ethnicity as people who have attacked us then we will have become terrorists ourselves and the cycles of revenge and hate will never end.

  20. misscripchick says:

    wow… i can’t even believe he suggested that…or at least suggested that out loud, on stage, and in front of people (the fact that he would think that isn’t too surprising)!

    ditto to shawn’s comment.

  21. Shawn says:

    If he thinks bombing (and destroying) Mecca and Medina will stop terrorism, he is incredibly naive. To destroy such religious landmarks would create an even greater retaliation than the act itself.

    They are pissed off enough over there, I doubt destroying their church will calm them down. Damn religion should stay OUT of politics ESPECIALLY Christianity.

  22. Infidel Parrot says:

    You’re not a judge of what is Christian and what is not.

  23. You cannot be the Christian you claim to be. You’re using the religion to justify the same thing Bin Laden tries to justify through his beliefs. The world is better off without the likes of both of you.

  24. Infidel Parrot says:

    Tancredo, Obama, and Clinton are all members of the US Congress, no? It is fair to say they are privy to intelligence and information that most Americans are not, agreed? Let me ask you, what could make godless, spineless, tree-hugging, despotic socialist liberals like Obama and Clinton say things like they want to invade Pakistan to eradicate Al Qaeda and that they would not rule out using nuclear weapons to ease the threat of terrorism? Methinks they understand the threat of militant Islam a bit more than some neoliberal bloggers do.
    I won’t bother to analyze Tancredo’s comments because they’re not surprising. In my opinion, I don’t know about starting with Saudi Arabia, but I think we need to at least nuke SOMETHING if/when we are attacked on the scale of 9/11 again, I don’t know if Tehran isn’t a better target to start with though.

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